Growing forward—insights on leadership and life

In this inspiring conversation, host Whitney Reagan talks with Mariner’s Chief Operating Officer, Cheryl Bicknell, JD, LL.M, exploring leadership, growth and the lessons learned along the way. Cheryl shares insights from her path to COO, her approach to leadership, continuous development and the pursuit of one’s highest and greatest use, and the values that continue to shape Mariner’s culture and future.

Transcript:

Whitney Reagan:

Today’s guest is someone that I personally admire: Cheryl Bicknell, chief operating officer at Mariner. She has a unique background; she got her undergraduate degree at Arizona State in finance and then went on to get a J.D. and a master’s in tax. She has had an incredible career, but that is not why I’m excited to talk to her. It’s not about her resume; it’s more about her journey. She is one of the big brains behind the operation. And I say behind intentionally because Cheryl doesn’t seek the spotlight and that is why this conversation is so special. So buckle up, put your listening ears on, and you’re about to hear from Mariner’s very own Cheryl Bicknell.

Welcome, welcome. Thanks for joining us for another episode of Your Life Simplified. I’m Whitney Reagan, senior wealth advisor here at Mariner and your host for today’s episode. And I am so pumped for the guests that we have today. I know that I seem to say that every time, but I’m truly excited about this guest. Cheryl Bicknell, she’s chief operating officer at Mariner. And I’m really pumped about this for two reasons. One is because Cheryl doesn’t normally get out into the spotlight very often. She stays kind of behind the scenes by design. And I think that’s why this conversation is going to be so special today. And then the second reason is just because we had Cheryl as a guest on one of our internal women’s groups. One of our most recent sessions, she spoke about her leadership, her journey of resilience, personal growth and just the future of advice.

And I thought it was so inspiring and I know that everyone in the room thought it was inspiring. So right then and there, I felt like, okay, we need to bring this to a broader audience and have her on the podcast. And thankfully she agreed. So I’m excited to introduce Cheryl and then just kind of get into the meat of this. Cheryl, how are you?

Cheryl Bicknell, J.D., LL.M.:

I’m doing great today. How are you doing?

Whitney:

I’m good. Like I said, I’m pretty pumped up. I’m about to jump out of my seat with excitement. I am excited about the conversation and get into the meat of it. How are you feeling about the conversation?

Cheryl:

I’m feeling great about the conversation. I mean, I love talking about Mariner and why I’m so excited about our organization and the opportunities that we provide for our people and happy to share any insights that I can from my experience here.

Whitney:

Well, that is excellent because I think that what I heard from you in that internal session was just so powerful for females to hear. But I think anybody just starting out, or in a professional career, or just needing advice, I think that this is going to be really good wisdom to share. And I’m also excited about talking about just Mariner in general, because I think the future of Mariner seems very exciting and empowering.

So what I love about interviewing people is just really showcasing the human side of their authentic personalities. And what I think is so refreshing about you, Cheryl, is that you are so authentically you. And I get to see you inside and outside of the office. And I think that you’re always very real and transparent and just…it’s refreshing. So I just wanted to state that upfront because that’s one of my passions is really bringing out that authentic side of people and you just naturally do it. So this is going to be fun. I usually like to start out with something of a softball or icebreaker question to get the blood flowing. So are you reading anything or watching anything of note that you’d like to share with the audience?

Cheryl:

So I’m an avid reader. I typically have around three books going at once, which I know sounds a little bit crazy and overwhelming, but for me it’s—

Whitney:

And confusing. It sounds like I might get lost in all of it.

Cheryl:

Well, I try to make sure they don’t overlap too much.

Whitney:

Yeah.

Cheryl:

So I have what I refer to as my beach read, which is helpful to go to sleep at night reading, a little bit of self-development and then always trying to learn something. And one of the books that I read recently that I’ve been talking about a lot with our people or anyone who wants to talk about this topic, I guess, is a book called Rethinking Work by Rishad Tobaccowala. He also has a podcast. Very insightful and interesting for someone in a professional position basically, frankly, I would say, really to think about what does the future look like? And it’s not an AI book. I’ve read some of those. It’s more about people and the future for people and how we will look at work differently, how we will integrate more fully across our lives, our work and personal, and how the employee really is going to have a lot more power in the future than I think you would probably predict if you believe in a lot of the conversation and headlines around AI.

So very insightful book and it’s really helped to shape a lot of what I think about and prioritize as a leader for Mariner on a go-forward basis.

Whitney:

Oh, that’s so interesting. That’s so interesting that you say the employee will have more power going forward because I think that that’s, well, empowering for an individual or for a professional, maybe just starting out, but it’s also a really good thing for leaders and people that supervise teams to hear. And I’m also glad that you said that there’s a podcast because I don’t have a whole lot of time to read outside of work and podcasts are always my way to catch up on things.

Cheryl:

Yeah, that’s great. Yeah. He has two podcasts, but the one specifically, Rethinking Work, I highly recommend to anyone that’s interested in thinking about the future of work.

Whitney:

When you said that you are usually reading three books at a time, I actually remembered, I just remembered that someone had told me that used to report to you that you’re like a crazy speed reader. Is that true? You can read really fast?

Cheryl:

Yes. I listen on Audible usually about 1.7 times, which Marty tells me I’m crazy. He says he doesn’t even know how I capture any of it. But then yes, I can actually do the speed reading on the book as well. My mom made us take a course when we were kids. I don’t know. It stuck somehow.

Whitney:

And so it actually… Well, maybe you just naturally were good at that and then it just leaned into it. But does everything sound like a chipmunk if you’re listening at 1.7 times?

Cheryl:

If I listen at one times, I’m like, “Come on, get to the point. Where are we going with this?” So I don’t know. It’s natural for me, but yes, it’s probably a little crazy for the majority of humanity.

Whitney:

Oh my gosh. What a great little factoid about you. I love that. Glad I asked it. Okay. So let’s get into the meat of the conversation that I’m so excited about. I guess let’s just start from the beginning. What was your path like to get to where you are today? I mean, I often say that mine was non-traditional and it wasn’t kind of a very linear path. And I’m curious if you would look back at yourself in undergrad or high school, what was your dream job? Did you accomplish your dream job or is this totally out of left field?

Cheryl:

It’s kind of funny because I accomplished my dream job in the technical sense of what I could have even imagined I wanted to do. I wanted to be an executive, and I wanted to be in business, and I wanted to do something strategic and be part of a firm that was really going to, I don’t know, be out in front of what was going on, and be part of something exciting. But as a teenager or even as an undergraduate, you don’t even know what a CEO or COO, sorry, taking Marty’s title, a COO of a wealth management firm even is, or I didn’t even know what a wealth management firm was, frankly.

So the path that I took here, non-traditional, where I am and what I’ve accomplished, probably to some extent right on point with what my plan was. And I think we talked about this when we did the internal discussion with the female empowerment group. I’m a planner, so I was so set on being the solution to any problem throughout my career. And so I graduated from law school in 2008. There were no jobs. I had debt and I needed to work and I wanted to work in something that was really going to provide me a platform for becoming an executive down the road, I guess. And so I ended up at Mariner, never planned to stay. I just wanted something on my resume that was going to be more contribution towards this future role when the economy changed. And then organically it went from there and I never left, obviously.

Whitney:

And something that you had mentioned is that your personality is more of progression, like you have to keep moving forward. You can’t feel like you’re standing still and you had a lot of friends or maybe classmates that had graduated at the same time as you, and they were just kind of taking any job that would give them a job, like even at McDonald’s or whatnot, to pay bills. And that wasn’t a solution for you, using kind of your words. So just maybe expand on that a little more.

Cheryl:

Yeah. I think as a person, I’ve always had what’s next in mind. It’s just a natural tendency for me that I frankly can’t fight against and sometimes probably leaves me unable to enjoy the moment or even unable to appreciate it fully. So there’s pros and cons to everything. We always talk about strengths over use, under use. But I was not willing to go work at Banana Republic for minimum wage, or whatever that a lot of my classmates were forced to do. And so like I said before, I mean, I needed to do something that was going to be a launching pad for my future and was going to feel like I was learning and making a difference and growing as a person.

So if I had gone to a place where it really wasn’t contributing towards the future potential for me, that was not an acceptable answer, even given the economic environment.

Whitney:

That’s interesting in the way that you felt just about the timing of it. And I feel like you kind of started out with, it almost felt like there was scarcity and the great financial crisis, I can’t imagine having student debt graduating, and then trying to get a job and trying to figure all of that out. It was probably a little scary and intimidating, but you at least just started something. But then from there, how do you move into different roles and how did you find what fit your strengths? Or how did you get to where you are then? What are the other stepping stones?

Cheryl:

So I mean, you mentioned in your opening that I’m more of a behind the scenes player. I think that as an introvert, obviously that’s naturally where I’m more comfortable, but also it plays on my strengths. I’m high execution, high strategic. Influence, relationship building are a little bit lower on the scale for me. And so when I think about, when I look back to how I was able to create a career essentially, I really focused on what I refer to as filling gaps.

So finish law school, get my first job, not really what I planned on, but here’s where we are. You need me to take notes? Great. That means I get invited to the meeting. It means that I’m in that meeting, I’m learning, I’m digesting the content, I’m hearing about where the company is going, and I’m able to think about how I can contribute strategically beyond taking really good notes, because in law school you learn how to take good notes, really.

Whitney:

I bet you do.

Cheryl:

I had a law degree, and so people thought, “Well, that just means she can do compliance.” Because I mean, even though you don’t learn anything about SEC compliance in law school, in full disclosure, but when you have a law degree, they think you can do compliance. So I got handed a compliance manual. So I called resources that I could find and did research and figured out what it meant to build a compliance program, what it meant to update a compliance manual, what it meant to do annual ADV filings and all of these things. And it wasn’t necessarily that it was a passion or an interest for me, but building something is a passion and an interest for me. And so I focused on that, and I focused on the path towards building myself out of it too in a lot of ways, and gaining that trust from leadership at Mariner at the time, that they could depend on me to own it, that they could depend on me to fulfill the future for it beyond me, and that I could be trusted to be given new and differentiated responsibilities.

So I went on from there, I built out our acquisition program and replaced myself, just have continued to fill those gaps. And I had to be coached out of emptying the dishwasher at one point in time because I still thought that that was something I should do when I came into the office every day, even though I wasn’t eating in the office and random things like that. So I’ve definitely had to grow into letting go of filling certain gaps that I see and allowing others to step in, but that’s really how I built my career. It was being someone who could be dependent upon behind the scenes to really get the things done that needed done.

Whitney:

Okay. There’s so many good little nuggets in here. The filling the gaps. That resonated with me very well because I actually started out as a receptionist and just kind of worked through, didn’t even know what my passion was. I mean, I didn’t know that I wanted to do anything with investments, but trying to fill gaps or solve problems that weren’t being solved, I think that that… I don’t even think that I ever realized that that was something that maybe I did in the past, too. But you not only filled a gap, but you…I remember something that you said before and I actually wrote it down. You’re like, “I was going to be the best darn note taker that this company has ever seen.” And that makes so much sense because no matter what opportunity you’re given, if you can excel in that, people start noticing that you’re being extra careful and you’re doing an extremely good job at something that maybe seems really small at first, but it just starts domino effect into larger responsibilities, and more things on your plate and more trust.

And I think that that’s so cool that it was just kind of like this gradual stepping stone into you actually being essentially an entrepreneur inside of the company because you were creating teams and building them up to then hand them off for somebody else to run them, from what it sounds like to me. Does that sound accurate?

Cheryl:

Yeah, I think it’s a great depiction. I think it’s also interesting because it sounds like great advice, right? Fill the gaps, be excellent at the job that’s given to you regardless of whether or not it really meets your goals and aspirations, but it’s actually really hard to do and you don’t see a ton of people doing it. You almost see people more gravitate towards wanting to show that something is below them to prove that they need different responsibilities and different chances. And it’s so backwards in thinking.

Why would you give a promotion to someone who isn’t excelling at being the receptionist? Why on earth would that cross your mind as a leader? What would cross your mind as a leader is, “Wow, that person’s proactive. Wow, they’re making sure that this is always done and I never have to ask for this,” and so on and so forth. And so I think it’s a really great perspective for people to consider no matter where you are. If you’re the COO and you want to be the CEO, right? I mean, how can you be promoted if you aren’t excelling at what’s in front of you today?

Whitney:

I think the excelling at the little things that maybe in a different mindset seem beneath you, but if you’re continuing to find ways to make it even better or more accurate, that’s going to show that you truly care, and you’re loyal to the organization and the bettering of the entire organization.

Cheryl:

Yeah, absolutely.

Whitney:

We talked about leadership a little bit and kind of like your path. So I’m curious of more about, I guess, leadership in general. I feel like you’ve built up some teams, like you mentioned, the compliance department, and the acquisitions team and inorganic growth. I think you’ve probably over time had a lot of people that you were leading and a lot of direct reports. And I’m not sure how many you have now, but I’m guessing it’s not easy to manage a lot of different people. And I can speak from experience.

I’ve never led a whole lot of people, but just like when I first became a manager and I think I had my first, just bad experience of a person not being happy that was reporting to me, and they had a bad experience and they were complaining. I think I talked to our head of HR and she was like, “Yeah, Whitney, managing people is actually really hard most of the time.” It’s not easy all the time, and it’s not fun all the time, but it’s mostly hard and challenging, and you’re helping people grow; but it’s also, it can be really challenging for yourself. So all that to be said, what would you say is your leadership style?

Cheryl:

So I, probably no shock to you, have fairly high expectations.

Whitney:

Yes. I can believe that.

Cheryl:

I think that I, partly probably because I’ve done a lot of these roles to some extent, partly because I’ve been here for so long, sometimes I wonder if it would translate as well in an environment where I didn’t have as much history; but high expectations in my opinion, leads to high trust, which leads to high empowerment. So I typically try to move people through needing me all the way to the point of really feeling like they’re an entrepreneur. I mean, you used that word earlier, right? They’re an entrepreneur of their career, of their function, of their leadership and span of control within the Mariner organization, and everybody takes their own journey to get there. And some people even go backwards for a little bit and then we got to push them back forwards, but really set that expectation of teaching them and coaching them this really high level of excellence in the work that they do, and the contribution that they bring to our organization, and then kind of move them across to empowerment.

And then from there, I think I really just try to be a champion for the work that they do. I love communication. I like context, it’s a word I use frequently so that I can be a champion for them, so that I can help to continue to provide them additional opportunities, and to be that voice for them within the organization where it’s helpful and additive.

Whitney:

I love that you just said the context thing. I don’t think that I knew that about you. You love the context because you want to know the why behind it, so then you can go and advocate or champion them in any efforts they are going forward.

Cheryl:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just my personality, just having a surface level understanding of something, it’s not something I’m comfortable championing. That’s a huge difference between Marty and I. He’s great. He’s got it. He’s going to go champion it with… And he doesn’t love the details. I need the details. I need a little bit of context, but then from there, I’m hooked, I’m in your corner, so to speak, as far as an executive leader at Mariner is concerned, and really to help be an advocate for what you need in order to succeed.

Whitney:

I can definitely relate to the details and needing more background information. It makes me feel more comfortable and more empowered to actually understand how to move forward so I can relate in that respect. So I’m curious on the leadership style, do you feel like you can see the filling the gaps piece of it? Do you feel like you have had your people that report to you or people that look up to you? Do you see them succeeding because they’re filling gaps or have you even… Is that something that you notice?

Cheryl:

I think probably to some extent, yes, just because probably my leadership style trends towards full ownership, that no one’s allowed to just operate in a silo. And the way that you work with me, I really challenge you to think about, you’re in legal, but what would marketing expectations be? What are the human resources components that we need to take into consideration in moving forward with this policy? So I’m sure that leads to some filling of gaps in how they operate and navigate as well, just because I don’t really let people get away with operating in a silo. It’s just not going to work for me.

Whitney:

No. Well, and I mean, that seems like a more collaborative approach anyways, where everybody’s hopefully coming from the same consistent message and then outwardly pushing that same consistent message. So that resonates with me too. Okay. Let’s go—

Cheryl:

And we’re so interconnected as an organization. Sorry.

Whitney:

Oh, yes. No, go for it.

Cheryl:

And you can’t help us… We have a missions and strategies framework that I know you’re familiar with, which is, think about that, like our annual goal planning process and what are the outcomes that we’re trying to drive in a given calendar year. And I mean, they are not achieved by one team, one individual, right? Those things, and the success and the growth and the trajectory that we have, it requires the collective efforts across the organization. And so I think I believe wholeheartedly that it’s essential for our people to be collaborative and to reach across cross-functionally in order to get really good work done.

Whitney:

Amen. I love that. I don’t have anything to add right there. Okay. I’m wanting to know what’s your favorite thing about leadership and then what’s the most challenging piece of being a leader?

Cheryl:

I mean, obviously you started this earlier with the people. I think the people are the hardest part and the people are the best part. As a leader, you can’t always give everybody what they want, and it’s not always in your control, even if you do want to give them everything they want. So there’s one side of it is sometimes it’s hard to tell people what they want is something you don’t agree with, but what’s even harder is when you agree with them, but there’s not something that you can do to help them achieve exactly what it is that they’re trying to achieve. And so the hardest thing for me is disappointing people who really deserve what it is that they’re asking of us.

And the other thing that’s hard about that is sometimes you can’t really provide them all the context for full understanding. And so that’s where relationships become so important and that trust that you develop with your direct reports, so that they understand and they appreciate that you as their leader are doing everything that you can, and you’re going to continue to fight for what they need and what they have earned, I guess, so to speak, until you can get across whatever the hurdle is or challenge that’s preventing you both from achieving that goal. But I don’t like disappointing people. I loved being able to help them succeed, help them to do more than they even thought was possible. And that’s the part I love about it, frankly.

Most of the individuals who are now leaders, I don’t think I have any direct reports who aren’t leaders at this point, to watch them then develop their own teams, to watch their teams get better than the way I did it and the way that they did it from an execution standpoint, to see them enhance things, and then to see them start to get creative, and to give them their own freedom and empowerment to think of new and creative solutions and to solve for things that are going to make the organization better, things that are going to help us to do more for our clients, and to find more advisors and to provide a better advisor experience, that’s so rewarding for me.

And I mean, I get so excited when people bring new ideas to me, just so happy to let them try and test and iterate and see what they can do within the kind of bounds of their span of control, if you will, so to speak.

Whitney:

The people that you’ve developed are actually now able to… They’ve grown and they’re leading, and it’s almost like they’ve created their own leadership style that they’ve earned the trust from you, and they’ve earned the empowerment. And so it’s like you’re leading new leaders, which is a really cool and inspiring thing to think about. And then on the challenging side, I was thinking, this must be a real internal dilemma for you because you just talked about how context is so important for you, and then you can’t always give all of the context to someone in that moment. And so it probably, again, just internally doesn’t feel right.

Cheryl:

Yeah. It can feel inauthentic to you as a leader that you aren’t able always to tell everyone every single thing that they want to know. And also, I mean, to be brutally honest, as someone who, I guess, reports into someone who can’t give you 100% of the context, sometimes it’s ignorance is bliss if I’m being honest. I mean, it does come sometimes from a place of protection that they don’t need to be bogged down with some of that stuff, because there’s some hard stuff you have to deal with, as you continue to elevate and become an executive in a firm, from time to time.

Whitney:

Yeah, that makes sense to me because I think that I’ve actually experienced in the past where I didn’t feel like I was given all of the information, but going forward, it was that it was truly from a place of protection, like, “I wanted to protect you,” and caring and that my leader cared about me. So I think that we have some really incredible intellectual capital here and really great people. And I think that’s one of the coolest parts about Mariner. So that might be just kind of a segue into what do you see for the future of Mariner?

Cheryl:

Yeah—

Whitney:

That’s a very open-ended question. I mean, you could take that all different directions.

Cheryl:

I’ll try to stay a little bit more tight with my viewpoint on the future of Mariner. I think, though, what you mentioned kind of brought something to mind for me. We’ve grown obviously from zero to over 2000 people in the span of, it’ll be 20 years in May of 2026.

Whitney:

That’s crazy.

Cheryl:

We have been able to maintain this, I’ve been starting to call it a casual culture. I don’t know that that’s probably the best word. I maybe should ask Chat GPT and shop that.

Whitney:

Casual culture.

Cheryl:

But we get to laugh. We get to be friends with one another. We get to have these relationships and talk to each other interchangeably around personal and professional. So, I call an individual on our team, and it’s like you jump in and out of it being professional conversation and it being a caring conversation about them as a human. And when I think about the look forward for Mariner, that’s something we’ve been able to maintain for 20 years. We better keep that going. Let’s not let the hard stuff, let’s not let the hiccups or a stupid headline, get in the way of us continuing to be really authentic human beings in the way that we show up, and the way that we interact with one another at Mariner. So that’s what I see in the future.

I think that we as a leadership group and just as associates across the organization, our advisors, our people interacting with clients day in and day out, they do such a great job of really focusing on that culture. Client first, associate second, shareholder last. That’s hard one to say sometimes. And protecting that ability for us to really show up as humans in how we interact and how we achieve our goals together. So when I look at Mariner, oh, I don’t know, say the five, 10 year projection, I think that, given my propensity to focus on the future of work and what does it look like, I think that we’re going to be able to evolve to serve even more clients, but also to have even more people be a part of our story.

I’m excited about what we’re doing to further enhance the future of advice, and drive the growth of advisors in the industry, if you will. So we’re expanding our internship program substantially going into 2026 and just want to continue to perpetuate that from there. Partnering with a number of different universities, really focusing on the future of advice. And when I think about that, like, I asked our internship program director, I said, “Okay, so you’re going to hire these interns from the 2026 class. They’ll start in 2027 or 2028 maybe. And then they’ll be an advisor, let’s say, by ’30, ’35.” I don’t know, just round numbers. Doesn’t matter. I’m not saying that’s our… Nobody quote me on our number of years of becoming a senior wealth advisor, right? The path we want to expedite.

Whitney:

Nobody’s—

Cheryl:

But 10 years from now, what does a senior wealth advisor look like at Mariner? What’s their expectation of the firm that they work for? Where do they want to operate? How do they want to integrate their life fully in order to stay with a firm? And I think that we become… Because we have such an advisor-centric culture, I think we’re going to meet that challenge head on, and we’re really going to be a place that advisors continue to thrive and that they choose to serve their clients for the entirety of their career. And that’s our goal. Our PE partner said to me the other day, “Why would an advisor ever leave Mariner?” I said, “That’s a great question.” And one that we want to continue to not have a good answer for as long as we can.

Whitney:

I’m seeing a lot of themes, even though I haven’t read the book, but I think it was called, you say it was called Rethinking Work? Rethinking—

Cheryl:

Rethinking Work. Yeah.

Whitney:

Yeah. I’m hearing a lot of themes coming out of that. It sounds like the talent, we want to keep the talent, and we also want to give them more, I guess, control or power in what works best for them to be authentically them. And it makes me more excited now to read the book, even though I don’t have time. It makes me more excited about the book.

Cheryl:

Just do the podcast.

Whitney:

Yeah. It makes me more excited about Mariner. And you talk a lot about culture, and I love that you called it casual culture. I might start using that phrase. I won’t steal your thunder. I’ll give you credit for it. I talk a lot about our culture too and how I feel like Mariner has all… Even though we’ve grown exponentially and we’ve blown up over the last 20 years, we’re huge, but it’s always felt like we are a small company and a nimble small company, but with the resources of a large organization.

And I want to keep that, too. I mean, you had just so many passionate points about this. Is this also what maybe keeps you up at night, or is this something that you find a little scary? Like, can we keep the culture?

Cheryl:

I’m sure there’s moments where something happens and it makes us all as leaders question, is it possible to maintain this? Is this the start of the crack? What I’ve seen us do time and time again is come together to overcome the obstacle. So no, it doesn’t keep me up at night at all, honestly. I have complete confidence and faith in our organization, and in the people who believe in our purpose, continuing to write the course every time that we get a little off.

What keeps me up at night is actually the opportunity. It’s not fear. Things are moving so fast today. We all are seeing it and they’re asking more of us than we’ve ever been asked of before, to be creative, to spend time learning, to be outward facing. The pressure is kind of growing to some extent, and the expectations. And so what keeps me up at night is really like, how do we first figure that out? We being the me type of person, but in a way, that’s going to help us to model it, and to help our people throughout the organization to jump on this wave, and be a part of it, and really enjoy and take advantage of the opportunity that we’re being presented. That’s what keeps me up.

Whitney:

Which is so cool and crazy in itself. Something that keeps you up at night is not fear, but it’s opportunity. It’s almost like, do we have too much opportunity?

Cheryl:

Sometimes we do.

Whitney:

I’ve never thought about, put my mindset in that frame of mind. But I think just the fact that you talk about wanting to model it, I think that shows true leadership, that you want to make sure and model it, and make sure everybody’s having fun. And it also kind of goes back to what you said earlier. Enjoy it in the moment and be present. Sometimes we forget about that, and actually enjoy what’s going on right now, because it’s cool to see what Mariner is doing right now. I’m going to jump—

Cheryl:

Marty has a saying… Oh, I was going to finish one thought.

Whitney:

No, no, no. Go ahead.

Cheryl:

Marty has a saying of, “We can do anything, but we can’t do everything.” And I think that that’s such a grounding thing to remind ourselves day in and day out, especially as females. We haven’t talked a ton about being female. As a female, one of our characteristics is thinking we can do everything perfect, or for a lot of us; I probably shouldn’t do generalizations. And I’m sure there’s plenty of males who think they can do everything perfect, too, but…

Whitney:

Touche.

Cheryl:

… there is so much opportunity and we can’t do everything. And so how do we really focus our energy on the highest and greatest use, whether it’s a Rethinking Work podcast tomorrow morning while you’re driving the kids to school, or whether it’s spending time with that direct report who really needs a strong, good, focused coaching conversation. All of these things take a lot of energy and you can’t do all of them. So each day you wake up and you decide what’s the priority for that day, and then you wake up tomorrow and you decide what’s the priority for that day? It doesn’t need to be the priority forever, but really taking that energy and using it productively is so important with how much is being thrown up at us all at this point in time.

Whitney:

I’m a big believer of highest and best use. And I was going to ask you this question in a little bit, but it just made me think of just… I can speak from personally, I’ve had experience with burnout, I’ve had experience with imposter syndrome, I’ve had experience where I have workaholic tendencies, and I still have trouble saying no to things. What kind of advice would you give someone like me, which I’m sure there are more people out there that are like me.

Cheryl:

It’s so easy to say. And so, I will caveat that with this, because similar to you, right? I’ve had periods of burnout. I’m a little bit obsessive. So once I get going on something, I want to go all in. I am introverted, so I can spend a lot of time getting in my own head and not moving through something. So I caveat what I’m saying with that, because I do want to show that I appreciate that we’re all in a different place in our journey. So it’s easy to say. It’s also easy to do once you just decide. Just say no.

Whitney:

Yeah.

Cheryl:

Just say no. Highest and greatest use, like you said. Number one priority for the day. Set the framework and just start deciding. Once you do that, and then you do it again, and you do it again and you do it again, you realize, that one, the stuff that you aren’t doing, somebody else does it, or it doesn’t get done, and you don’t care either way. It sounds really important, but you find out quickly if you really focus on what’s most important and what’s going to give you the most energy, those things matter less and they either get done or they don’t, and either way it’s okay.

Number two, I think give yourself permission to… I don’t know that take shortcuts is probably the right word, but I’m going to use it anyways. If someone offers to drive your kid to soccer practice and you feel guilty because they drove them last week, but they offer, just take them up on it. Give yourself that break and go for a walk, or do something immersive with someone else in your family, et cetera, at that time. I mean, give yourself permission to leverage resources that you have available to you and don’t feel bad about it. And then the last thing I would say is really going back to, using the word entrepreneur, again, be the CEO of your life and really have hard conversations with yourself about what that means, and what the expectations of yourself are, if you really are wanting to live wholistically and kind of enjoy all the different aspects.

Whitney:

That is such great advice. Can I ask you what you do for fun? Anything outside of Mariner?

Cheryl:

Yeah. So, well, we already talked about how much I read.

Whitney:

And how fast you read.

Cheryl:

And my speed reading capabilities. So throughout my whole life, I’ve been fairly athletic or active, maybe not athletic isn’t the right word, active. And so during COVID, my closest friends and I were tired of our husbands getting to go golf and have all this fun all the time, and we didn’t have an outlet to really enjoy and participate together fully in our friendship. And so we talked about, “Do we golf or what else other options are there?” And we didn’t want to golf because that’s what the boys do, and we didn’t want to really hang out with them. We wanted our own thing. And so we started playing tennis. So we took a Learn Tennis Now course in October 2020.

Whitney:

That’s literally what it was called? It was called Learn Tennis Now?

Cheryl:

Yeah, Learn Tennis Now. Never had played tennis in my entire life. And so now five years, fast-forward later, I am on a competitive tennis team and I play probably four or five days a week. It’s my social outlet. It’s my energy outlet. It’s a stress reliever. It helps me with getting some of that competitive energy that I have, and excitement to achieve something and accomplish something that’s really hard. And I love it. I’m obsessed. So I play all the time.

Whitney:

Oh my gosh. Five years, that’s really impressive. I actually played tennis growing up and all through high school. I haven’t picked up a racket in years. Maybe I need to try it, but I don’t want to play against you. I’m too scared.

Cheryl:

If you played in high school, you’d be fine.

Whitney:

So, we have talked about what you do for fun and, actually, how impressive your tennis skills must be after five years. You’ve actually mentioned to me before that self-care and investing in yourself is a big part of your playbook and how you kind of succeed as a leader. Can we unpack that one a little bit?

Cheryl:

Sure. So self-care, obviously we all hear everywhere you look how important it is, especially as females. I think we need probably more self-care and sometimes we’re not… I don’t know, we battle against that. It should be the same. We shouldn’t need more self-care than males do. And we can overcome that. And I think that that’s doing ourselves a disservice, honestly, or I’ve found for me anyways, that’s doing myself a disservice. And so giving yourself permission for self-care is probably… I mean, I don’t even know where it would’ve fit in and what we’ve talked about so far, but probably should have led with that, frankly. And self-care for me is today a lot different than it was when I started out thinking about self-care. And so I think what that says is everyone needs to start the journey and be open to it evolving, that my version of self-care today, it may not be something that is achievable out the gate for you, or even resonates with you out the gate or even long-term.

So self-care, we always think about going to the spa or having a retail therapy day, things like that. And I think that those things are great. And obviously, I’m just like the next person, love a good shopping day with my friends. But I think self-care today for me, and what is the most meaningful to me, and how I show up as a leader, and how I show up as a spouse, and how I show up just as a human, is all free. So I meditate every day. I read a book on meditation, and Marty had been meditating for probably a couple years at this time, and he kept telling me I need to do it. And I was being stubborn and ignoring him. And I finally decided to read this book and start a practice. And I’ve been doing it for three years now. And it really is impactful in how I start my day with a little bit of silence.

And the thing about meditation, and I don’t know how much time you’ve spent learning about it, but there isn’t doing meditation perfectly. Some days I sit there and I think about my to-do list and I’m like, “Never mind, go back to meditating.” And I probably spent less than 50% of the time in true silence, or not in true silence because I’m silent, but not thinking about my to-do list, I guess.

Whitney:

Yes. Where your brain is going.

Cheryl:

Yeah. But it’s 17 minutes is how long I meditate every morning. And that 17 minutes of quiet really helps me regulate my nervous system, and get ready for the day ahead and be ready to tackle whatever’s coming at me. So I cannot underestimate. I know it feels a little unclear the value of it, but once you start doing it, you start to crave it. And then sleeping.

Whitney:

Is that the first thing that you do in the morning or is it—

Cheryl:

Yeah, first thing when I wake up.

Whitney:

That’s the first thing? Okay.

Cheryl:

Yeah. I grab a couple pillows off the floor, prop them up behind me in the bed and I meditate. I don’t even get out of bed.

Whitney:

17 minutes does sound like a long time. Did you gradually get up to that amount?

Cheryl:

Yeah, the course I did was a 30-day course. And so yes, you work through this practice of starting with guided meditations, just shorter periods of time, et cetera. The meditation I do is a mantra meditation, not guided. I know a lot of people prefer guided, but yeah, now it flies by and I can go longer, frankly, if I feel like taking the time, for sure.

Whitney:

Awesome. Okay. What else? What other things? Self-care.

Cheryl:

The other things for me that are so important is sleep. So I’m a big believer in following your circadian rhythm and I go to bed very early. I get made fun of for how early I go to bed, frankly, but really prioritizing sleep. And I always say after dinner, once it’s dark outside, what do you do? You watch Netflix and you drink more wine. I mean, you’re not missing anything. Start your wind down routine and put yourself to bed. And then the last thing that I love about self-care is—

Whitney:

How early are we talking? Sorry to go back, but how early are we talking about? Are we saying like 7:00 PM?

Cheryl:

No. Well, okay. So no, I don’t go to sleep at 7:00 PM, but I definitely start my wind down routine around 7:00.

Whitney:

Okay. That’s fair. I wish that I would start there.

Cheryl:

I like to be asleep around 8:15, but depends upon what’s going on. Some days that’s not achievable—

Whitney:

I’m sure.

Cheryl:

… and some days at 7:30, I turn off the lights, and I put my little eye mask on, and I just go to sleep because I’m done. It’s done.

Whitney:

Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I need to start this. Okay. What’s the third thing?

Cheryl:

And then the third thing for me is walking the dogs. And I know we don’t all have dogs, so I do think this is walking the dogs. Walking is great. You should walk for self-care, but walking the dogs adds another element to your self-care routine. So if you don’t have dogs, your neighbor would love for you to take their dogs for a walk. Just put yourself out there.

Whitney:

They probably would.

Cheryl:

People are nicer to you on the street. They say hi, they smile. They ask you questions about yourself and your dog. They interact with you. The dogs are so happy, so they make you smile. They make you think really positive thoughts. It’s an elevated experience walking dogs than it is to walk by yourself. So highly recommend walking dogs. It’s all kinds of health benefits there. And the dogs get exercise.

Whitney:

There’s a lot of connection there, too. It’s like connecting with other people, connecting with new people. You’re almost building in a new network of friends, even though they’re not… Like, stranger friends. And then the dog, I think you also said at one point that you like to do dance parties with the dog, too, which sounds like extremely fun.

Cheryl:

Yes. We love a good dance party in our house with the dogs. It’s so funny.

Whitney:

So giving yourself permission to self-care, and whatever self-care means to you is kind of to each their own, but at least just making sure that you’re making the space and the time for it because… Well, you said investing in yourself, I mean, you have to be your best self before you can lead others to be their best self, right?

Cheryl:

Right, right. When you hear of so many people who run, I mean, I don’t run anymore because I play so much tennis, but you hear so many people who run that say that’s when they have their best ideas. That’s what all of this is to me from a self-care standpoint. It’s not not working. It’s freeing yourself up to have your best ideas and to bring your best work forward. When we’re in it, when we’re heads down and focused, you start to miss what the opportunity is and you miss your opportunity to shine. And so I think self-care, yes, awesome. It’s great. But also you’re going to be better if you take a break. You actually are going to be better at your work.

Whitney:

Oh, yes. And that’s a magical statement of just freeing yourself to essentially become better and more creative and a better version of yourself, but also a better person at work.

Cheryl:

Yeah.

Whitney:

That’s so good. So good. Okay. One piece of advice that you would give to a younger version of you? I think I called it Mini Cheryl.

Cheryl:

Mini Cheryl. So we’ve talked a little bit about my path and my propensity to always be focused on what’s next. The piece of advice I would give myself is to not be in such a hurry if I look back. I felt like I needed to be the youngest X, the youngest this, the youngest that. And it was always an age game for me to achieve more, and to do more and to get there faster. And now that I’m in my 40s, there’s so much left—

Whitney:

Still young, by the way.

Cheryl:

I know. But when you’re in your teenage years—

Whitney:

20s, yeah.

Cheryl:

… and your 20s, 40 is old because your parents are 40.

Whitney:

Totally. I know. I’m old to my kids right now, for sure.

Cheryl:

Yeah. That’s when life starts to be over. And I, as someone who is now at that age, appreciate fully, there’s so much left. I could go to med school tomorrow and still become a doctor. I don’t know. And I’m not going to do that. But none of that was… I just didn’t have any awareness of how much life there was, and how much energy you have, throughout such an extended period of time. And I was always in a hurry. Just, I always had to do the next thing. And so I’m trying to slow down a little bit now, or at least trying to appreciate and live in where I am a little bit better than I did when I was younger.

Whitney:

Oh, that’s awesome. I kind of try to tell my kids the same thing. I’m like, “Enjoy being a kid. Stop trying to be a grownup.” We’re only a kid once.

Cheryl:

Yeah. I’m just a natural grownup. I was probably an adult at 12. I mean, that’s just who I am. I’m just naturally an older—

Whitney:

I can totally see that.

Cheryl:

Yeah. I’m just naturally a natural adult, I guess. But yeah, just you don’t need to hurry, even if that’s your kind of natural propensity.

Whitney:

Yeah, you’re an old soul as I would phrase it.

Cheryl:

Yeah, that’s right. Let’s forget the word old. Let’s take that out there.

Whitney:

Yeah. Okay. So you’re a wise soul. How about that?

Cheryl:

Wise adult soul.

Whitney:

Wise adult soul. Okay. I have a lightning round, which I love to ask some of our guests. I hope you’re ready for it. Are you ready?

Cheryl:

I’m ready.

Whitney:

Okay. What is the best piece of advice that you have ever been given?

Cheryl:

Best piece of advice I’ve ever been given was really with my mom, and how we thought about curating my education in order to support my professional goals. And so she and I really did research and envisioned the combination of finance and law that would help me to achieve my goals in a more meaningful way. And her advice and guidance along the way was pivotal in that, and giving me permission to do it and supporting me through all it, of course.

Whitney:

That’s awesome. And it really did kind of just launch… It was a launchpad for you from what I can tell.

Cheryl:

Yeah. I mean, I never became an attorney, but the legal training that you get, I mean, it takes years of professional experience to recreate that, in my opinion. So I think it was great advice that she gave me.

Whitney:

Absolutely. What’s the worst piece of advice that you’ve ever been given?

Cheryl:

So as you’ve probably discovered throughout this conversation, I’m fairly headstrong. And so, I think if anyone’s ever given me bad advice, worst advice, I’ve probably argued them to death to change that advice, so that I don’t even remember it because they were wrong. And I put the work in to prove to them that their advice didn’t make sense and they needed to change it.

Whitney:

And so you just proved them wrong and let it go. I mean, and you weren’t even ever a litigator either, but it sounds like you have that experience, too.

Cheryl:

Oh yeah. Yeah. There’s a very stubborn human right here.

Whitney:

That has had so much personal and professional growth, right?

Cheryl:

I know.

Whitney:

Okay. I’ve got another one. If you could eat one thing for the rest of your life, what would it be?

Cheryl:

Avocados. Healthy fat, super food, very versatile. I mean, avocado all day.

Whitney:

I mean, you have to be really good at picking out a good avocado then, right? Because there’s some bad ones out there.

Cheryl:

Yeah. Yeah. You know the trick with avocados? So I buy them not ripe, but I buy them like five or six at a time. I buy quite a few and you leave them out on the counter until they ripe to the perfect degree of ripeness that you want to eat them, and then you put them in the fridge.

Whitney:

And then you just put them in the fridge? Okay. I think that I needed to know that because I’ve done—

Cheryl:

And it’ll last like another 10 days, two weeks.

Whitney:

Excellent. Look at all this wisdom in there.

Cheryl:

It stops the ripening process, but you got to get them ripe first. You put them in the fridge and they’re not ripe and they will not ripen.

Whitney:

I think that’s what I messed up with is I always put them in the fridge first. So that’s great advice. Okay. What is your… I like this one. I love the food one because I think it tells a lot about someone. What’s their favorite food? But this one is what is my all-time favorite. What is your superpower from your perspective, like a unique trait, maybe a skillset, however you want to take it, but what’s your superpower?

Cheryl:

Well, we already talked about my speed reading superpower.

Whitney:

Yeah, you can’t use that one.

Cheryl:

I think if you asked people about me, and something that’s kind of outsized from their perspective and how they perceive me, I have an uncanny ability to recall things. As a kid growing up, I would say I forgot this or that. And my mom would look at me, and she’d know I was lying, because it just was never true. It’s not even possible in my body to forget things. So be warned, anyone out there, if you lie to me, I will know.

Whitney:

I don’t think that I can ever—

Cheryl:

I don’t forget things.

Whitney:

Yeah. That is a little bit scary. I don’t think that… I mean, I’m not very sneaky to begin with and I am not a good liar, so I would definitely not be able to pull one past you.

Cheryl:

Right. But as a kid, when your parents say, “Why didn’t you pick up your toys?” And you’re like, “Oh, I forgot they were there.” Those little white lies, not like big lies. Yeah. Those little things where you just want an excuse to be lazy or something. And I never could get away with it, because she knew that was not the real reason ever with me.

Whitney:

That’s an amazing superpower. We might be actually a scary duo because I have this unique ability to have people share a lot about themselves with me.

Cheryl:

Oh yes.

Whitney:

And if it was that plus never forgetting, I don’t know if anybody would want to be friends with us.

Cheryl:

No. Come on. Come on over. Talk to Cheryl and Whitney.

Whitney:

Yeah.

Cheryl:

Tell us your secrets.

Whitney:

Okay. That is excellent. Okay. Last question. Well, first, I guess, is there anything that you didn’t talk about that you wanted to talk about? And if not, what just lights you up about Mariner?

Cheryl:

No. I mean, this was so fun. It’s fun to spend time with you, even though we didn’t get to do it in person. But hopefully we brought a little Scottsdale to the podcast today, so happy about that.

Whitney:

I was going to ask you where you are. Are you in Scottsdale? I’m so jealous because it’s cold and rainy here, and I knew that I would be jealous. That’s probably why I didn’t ask you.

Cheryl:

Yeah. 90 and sunny. Yeah, this is my Scottsdale office. What lights me up about Mariner? It’s all the opportunity. I mean, there is an abundance of possibility and opportunity, and we have so many good people, and we have so much great energy, and we have so much in front of us as far as our runway is concerned, that we can do and that we can be better and we can grow, even though we’re already amazing in my obvious biased opinion.

Whitney:

Yeah. Well, with that, I just want to thank you. I think that this conversation was exactly what I wanted it to be, plus more. And I think that you’re inspirational. I think that your journey is very empowering and also it kind of shows that you’re a visionary. And something that I think is really cool about your journey is that, I said this a little bit in the beginning and maybe it wouldn’t be your phrase, but I feel like just starting where you started after law school, it being the great financial crisis, it was kind of a moment of scarcity, but you’ve literally transformed your journey into something of radical abundance and opportunity. And I think that just says something about you as a person and as a leader. And I hope that everyone found this as inspiring and energizing as I did. And I’m just glad that we had you today. So I had a lot of fun. Cheryl, thank you.

Cheryl:

Yeah, thank you. This is great. And I really appreciate you, and all you do, and for you in taking this journey of building this podcast and creating this forum for us and for others at Mariner. And you’re inspiring to me, as someone who likes to stay behind the curtain most days, to see you kind of take on new challenges and grow and develop as a leader in our organization as well. So I’m excited to see what’s ahead.

Whitney:

Oh, awesome. Me, too. I’m so pumped. I hope that we can have you back soon and in the future, do another one of these kind of dynamic duo conversations. And I’ll say thank you to the audience. Thanks for going alongside us through this conversation. I hope that you enjoyed what you heard from Cheryl. And if you did enjoy what you heard from Cheryl and other guests that we’ve had on the podcast, please like, subscribe or follow wherever you listen to your podcasts. And we hope that you have a great rest of your week.

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