From experience to impact: A leader’s journey

Leadership isn’t defined by a job title—it’s shaped by the experiences, values and people who influence our path. In this episode, host and senior wealth advisor Whitney Reagan sits down with Mariner’s Chief Investment Officer, Katrina Radenberg, for a candid conversation about mentorship, growth and authenticity. Together, they explore the moments that shaped Katrina’s journey to CIO and the lasting impact of leading with intention.

Transcript

Whitney Reagan:
You are about to hear from someone extraordinary. Katrina Radenberg, chief investment officer here at Mariner. She has been a part of the Mariner organization for a very long time. She started in 2007 and has worn a lot of different hats, has served in many different roles, including asset allocation, fixed income, has ran the tactical ETF portfolio. She also became the first female chief investment officer at Mariner, which is an awesome accolade. Back in 2018, she was a chartered financial analyst and in 2019, she was named a Woman to Watch by Investment News.

Outside of all of her resume accolades or that you can see on paper, I think what’s most important and what I love about her is her wisdom, her encouragement and her passion for developing others. You are going to get to hear from her in what I call her authentic leadership. And I also call her my spiritual zen master. So, you don’t want to go anywhere because she might be yours too. Stay tuned.

Welcome, welcome. Thanks for joining us for another episode of Your Life Simplified. I’m Whitney Reagan, senior wealth advisor here at Mariner, and I am your host for today’s podcast. And what a lucky gal I am. I get to interview two strong female leaders here at Mariner, back-to-back for our audience to hear. Today I’m joined by Katrina Radenberg, chief investment officer of Mariner. She’s been a veteran like me, actually longer than me. She’s more of a veteran because she’s been here since 2007. And I’ve been actually trying to get Katrina on the podcast for probably a year now and the stars have finally aligned and we have her on the show. I’m so excited.

With all that, I guess, preamble, how are you today, Katrina?

Katrina Radenberg:
I’m great. I’m excited to be here. Thank you for all the lovely things that you said about me in the intro and can’t wait to be part of this.

Whitney:

And I’m just going to warn you, you are not allowed to turn this around and try and ask me questions and get answers out of me, because you are in the hot seat today.

Katrina:

I’m here for it.

Whitney:

All right.

Katrina:

I’m ready.

Whitney:

Okay, cool. Great. So, I like to start with something easy usually before we get into the deeper, harder questions. Are you reading or watching anything of note today?

Katrina:

Not watching, reading. I’m always reading something. I’m actually always reading multiple books at once. I pick them up and put them down as I feel called. But one book that I’m reading right now is called Primal Intelligence. And I’m early into it still, but it’s basically around neuroscience and our intuition and how we all have intuitive ways about us if we will cultivate those. And so, as you think about that in conjunction with AI and how do we really honor both what we know innately, but with all the information at our fingertips too. So, I’m very into that.

Whitney:

Is it like what you’re innately born with and then somehow finding that inside of yourself later?

Katrina:

Well, we’ll probably get into this more later too, but I’m not through it all the way. But to me, what spoke to me about it is, I believe, and you know this about me—

Whitney:

Yes.

Katrina:

I believe we all have our answers inside of ourselves.

Whitney:

Well, and you’ve also taught me that in the past where you’ve made me realize that I do have the answer. I just wanted you to give me the answer. And so, you somehow found a way to get it out of me. And that’s another unique ability of yours, which I love. I forgot to mention our past and how we’ve gone through our journey together. Not only are you a dear friend of mine and a mentor, like I mentioned, and we worked together or we started our work together back at Montage Investments, but I worked on the investment team where you were leading the investment team and you still are, you’re still the chief investment officer. And I was working on the investment team.

So, I felt like we were directly connected there. And now that I’m not working on the investment team anymore, I feel like I was very sad to leave and I was very sad to leave you because you’ve been such a good leader to me and just like I said, personal and professional growth. But what I didn’t know is that we would still stay so interconnected, and we’ve been working on initiatives and projects, and we find ways to collaborate together. And I feel like we’re just still making waves.

Katrina:

We are.

Whitney:

We are. So, you told me about your book. I do find it interesting that you read multiple books at a time. Cheryl actually told me that too, and I find it very confusing. I can’t put my head in multiple books unless it’s children’s books because I have three kids.

Katrina:

I don’t know. I never used to do it, but I find that I actually read more books by having the variety to pick what I want to read when I want to read it.

Whitney:

Oh, that’s actually, that’s a good point because I think sometimes when you look at a book in its entirety, it can feel, for me, overwhelming to just read the entire thing. So, maybe the variety, it makes you feel like you have a little break and then you go back and you want more of it because you have the break.

Katrina:

Yeah. That’s what I found works for me, but I understand that that seems probably chaotic and weird to other people.

Whitney:

I feel like this is going to be a good conversation. So, I love that we started easy. Now we’re going to jump into a couple of the questions that I prepared and I just want to see where this goes. So, Katrina Radenberg, what did you want to be when you grew up? As you were little, what did you want to be when you grew up? Did it go on a traditional path and you got to where you wanted, or what did that look like?

Katrina:

I’m stuck on you saying, “What did you want to be when you grew up Katrina Radenberg?” I’m on trial, but what did I want to be? I grew up in a small town, so it’s not like I necessarily had all these careers I was looking at when I was growing up, right?

Whitney:

Oh, yeah.

Katrina:

And so, the only thing I can really remember when I was a kid, like I loved to… You play make believe, play makeup stuff, right? So, my sister and I would play school, I would be the teacher, I would make her be the student, we’d play bank. I’d be the banker and she would be the customer. I don’t know. So, apparently I liked money and I liked to teach and now here we are 40 some years later and I do both.

Whitney:

You do both. You teach and you teach about money and you work at a wealth management firm. I also like to play house. Did your sister ever—

Katrina:

Oh, I did too. Yeah.

Whitney:

Did your sister ever get to be the banker or were you just the…

Katrina:

I actually meant to ask her about that. I don’t know, and I would guess based on my personality.

Whitney:

Yeah. I was going to say, were you just the bossy older sister?

Katrina:

She tried to boss me around a lot, though. Yeah.

Whitney:

So, as you went through college and got your first job, what was your path like getting to where you are today? I mean, was there a defining moment in your journey or career path that got you to chief investment officer?

Katrina:

Yeah. I don’t know. I think my path was an interesting one. So, what did I want to be when I grew up? I always loved math and science. So, I loved solving problems. I was very analytical. I mean, I still am today in many ways. And so, when I started down the business path in college, the finance investing, I was just drawn to the topic. And so, in many ways, I feel like I got lucky that I just pursued what interested me and things just came, choices came along the way around careers, around what did I want to do. Even my time here at Mariner, I never even thought about being the CIO, to be honest.

So, I didn’t have this plan or this master plan that said, I want to be CIO of some wealth management organization along the way. I mean, I didn’t even know what an RIA was back in 2007.

Whitney:

Yeah, or wealth management or financial planning. I mean, we’ve come a long way.

Katrina:

But the job that I was at before here, I was in this place of, I had been more on the asset management side of the business, and I was contemplating whether or not I wanted to work with clients. Would that be a more meaningful and a more fulfilling career? I was talking to other mentors and stuff too about what I wanted to do next. And Mariner intrigued me because I could take my investment skillset and my knowledge, and Marty was looking to start building out an investment team when I came on board. And I could maybe be an advisor if I wanted to be.

Whitney:

Did you think about that?

Katrina:

I mean, it was in the back of my mind as it would give me optionality if I actually wanted to work with clients. Now, 18 years later, I still have yet to be an advisor, but I find a lot of fulfillment out of the fact that through my work and the work of our awesome team, we’re able to help advisors, help clients. And so, while I don’t necessarily sit face-to-face with clients like you do, I feel that I’m still impacting actually way more clients than I would be able to if I were just serving them.

Whitney:

Yep. That’s so fascinating. That’s something that I didn’t know about you, that you had thought about potentially being an advisor. That was like the whole internal dilemma that I had when I was on the investment team. And I chose the opposite route of being able to impact clients more directly, but you’re impacting more clients and more people too, just by, I think, being a leader of people—you’re impacting your team and also the advisors and the clients of the advisors, which is pretty cool. So, 18 years, you just said that you had your 18-year anniversary this year?

Katrina:

I did. Isn’t that exciting?

Whitney:

Oh my gosh.

Katrina:

I don’t know why 18 feels so cool, maybe because I’m an adult inside of Mariner now or something.

Whitney:

Yeah. Yeah, you’ve been around… Well, and we’re going to celebrate our 20-year anniversary next year, so you’ve been around essentially since the beginning. I mean, I guess I was going to ask you this later, but since you are a female in a male-dominated industry, and I’ve always felt like Mariner has been ahead of the curve with just how we advance women, how we’ve had a lot of women in leadership roles. Do you feel like we’re doing what we should be doing in that realm of advancing women or empowering women, or did you ever feel like you had to struggle because you were a female in a male-dominated industry?

Katrina:

Yeah, great questions. I’ll work my way backwards maybe. I feel like I’ve been fortunate and lucky. I know that there are women in the industry that have felt like because they’re a woman, they were disadvantaged or whatever took place. I’ve never felt like that once. So, I honor and respect that others have not walked that path, but I also think I’ve been surrounded by men that supported me and supported women.

Whitney:

And just sorry to interrupt, but I don’t want to lose this. I was going to ask, maybe it was what you surrounded yourself with, right? Maybe it’s how you positioned yourself in the sense that you surrounded yourself with people that you knew you trusted and that actually wanted to help you grow, and that’s why you didn’t have the unfortunate situation that some women do.

Katrina:

I think there’s a lot of truth to that. I also think that I think inside of our walls, I think in the industry, a lot of good is happening to advance women. And that doesn’t mean there’s not more progress to be made, but a lot of the things that happen, things still happen in the world, but I think there’s been so much more advancement that sometimes we focus too much on what’s still yet to be made better versus how good it really is right now.

Whitney:

And you don’t want to discount maybe things that have happened. However, our company—and I’m a true believer that we see people and talent for what they are and continue to grow that, and it doesn’t matter if it’s male, female, like anything of the sort—and I just think that we try and position people to move into their strengths and live out what their unique abilities are.

Katrina:

No, I’m not saying I was never intimidated. There were times where being the only female around a table with all these men, sometimes I felt like, “What am I doing here? Do I know enough?” But the thing that I realized along the way was nobody was making me feel that way, except me and my own insecurities. And it was only me looking around being like, “Who at this table is different?”

Whitney:

You.

Katrina:

But honestly, I will also say that I think that that helped me have a strong voice because I needed to. Yes, other people around the table have ideas, but everybody has ideas. You have to trust in yourself and have enough confidence in yourself to say what’s on your mind and what you believe in.

Whitney:

Did you find that there was a defining moment that helped you to be more vocal, or to be more confident in yourself?

Katrina:

The defining moment from a speaking up—I think again, it’s like the leaders that have been around me along the way that have encouraged me to use my voice more, to get out in front of people and speak with people and realizing we’re all communicating all the time, right? Even if that’s not your role to be a speaker, we are all needing to influence others through our work.

Whitney:

Yes. And oh my gosh, that’s a great segue into something that I wanted to ask you about. I think that you’re an excellent speaker now and you command rooms of people and I love the way that you present. And actually, I’ve heard from one of our acquired firms before that you were the best presenter that they’ve ever seen. But I also recall back in our old days when I was on the sales desk, and Katrina was not a huge fan of speaking in public or doing any kind of public speaking.

Katrina:

Yeah. So, I came to terms with it. But to your point on the public speaking thing, which whoever said that about me was very kind because I don’t know that I would call myself a natural, but that’s awesome. And I’ll own that as my new identity from a speaking perspective. I was put like, you’re right, I would have stayed behind the computer and Excel on Bloomberg probably my whole career if I hadn’t really been challenged a little bit to say, “We need you to speak and to be more engaged in relationships too.” So, I mean, I did what anybody would do, right? I did some presentation coaching and that helped. But a lot of it honestly is just getting more like you just have to practice, right? It’s with anything.

The more you do it, the more comfortable you become. And when I can speak about something that feels natural and authentic to me, I mean, I still get nervous, but it’s not as scary to go and speak on a stage with a thousand people looking at you.

Whitney:

I just told Marty the other day that the podcast is a dream come true for me because I’ve always wanted to be a podcast host, which is amazing, but I still get nervous before. I mean, you saw me before we were talking. I have to get myself in the right mindset to know that I’m ready, but then it just goes.

Katrina:

Yeah.

Whitney:

It’s fun.

Katrina:

It’s like anything in life. The fear of the thing is usually worse than actually doing the thing.

Whitney:

Yes, yes, absolutely.

Katrina:

Can I take us back to one thing on—

Whitney:

Yes, please.

Katrina:

We skipped over on Mariner and women and are we doing enough? And I want to go back because I want to brag on you for a minute, even though you said I can’t ask you questions. So, while I always think that there’s room to improve and do more, you and Rachel Vivian, the work that you guys have done to create, EmpowerHer, our internal group to really bring women together and to have a forum for women to help each other grow and navigate the changes internally, the changes in the industry, those types of things, the amount of resources we put around our associates generally.

But as you think about female advancement, I think that’s a great example and a testament to you of taking your leadership and being able to figure out how can you as an associate help lead this change. And I think that’s one of the things that is most awesome about this company generally is it’s not about any one person. It’s about how do we cultivate the strengths and the interests of each person and allow them to go create and do things inside of our company and outside of our company that makes things better for everybody, for women and men, for everyone.

We really allow people to cultivate their passions, what are they interested in and go and create inside of our organization, outside of our organization to create change, to make us better, further advancement of women, men, everybody.

Whitney:

Yes.

Katrina:

The industry.

Whitney:

That is something that I actually said in our last episode, is what I love about Mariner, is we feel like a small company, but we’re backed by the resources of a large organization, but we feel nimble and small and we can try new things and allow people to try new things and let them lean into what their strengths are. And that’s what I love about what you’ve done with the chief investment officer role. You have really shaped it into, or shaped it away from the traditional sense. And I think you’ve called it like a talking head. You’ve never really leaned into that and you’ve shaped it into what’s best for your leadership style and what’s best for your strengths.

I think you’ve also said this before, that what was needed and what was best for Mariner. And so, I want to unpack that a little. How did you feel about when you became the chief investment officer? Did you know that you were going to shape the role and the role wasn’t going to shape you?

Katrina:

Not exactly. I mean, I had an inkling of it because as you alluded to, most of the time when you think about a chief investment officer, you think about the person that’s on CNBC talking about stocks, talking about the market. They’re likely waking up in the morning and they’re giving you thoughts for the day on what’s ahead or what’s ahead for the week. While I love investing and I love the stock market and I love all things are related to finance, it was never me to—or I didn’t envision myself, I guess I would say, talking about stocks, picking stocks, getting on CNBC.

But the beauty of it is the team that we have and the talent we have across the team, we have other people that love to do that and they’re good at doing that. And so, when I became the CIO, we knew that I didn’t need to play that role. What we needed as an organization was somebody that could lead and be nimble and agile around how we were continuing to grow and pivot as an organization. So, we really needed more like the strategy and the leadership of the functions and the people than we needed me to go out and be on CNBC and the typical things that you would think about when you think about being a CIO.

I also think often, especially in smaller organizations, the CIO is typically calling all the shots, right? Directing, asset allocation, making the calls on any tactical plays, all those sorts of things. But when I had the privilege and the honor to step into the role, I didn’t need to play that role either because today, we have close to a hundred person team.

Whitney:

That’s insane. I think it was like eight people when I joined.

Katrina:

Probably. And we have the talent, we have the people to allow them to make the decisions and make the calls to suggest what we should be doing in all the various aspects of the functions that we’re running for the size of the organization we are today. So, it’s just been different. And I think for me, that’s been a good thing because I wouldn’t have wanted the role had it been the traditional way of thinking about being a CIO. I also think that’s something that, just the nature of how that happens, that wasn’t just for me being the CIO. That’s how we lead as an organization. It’s less about we have this defined role and who can fit it.

It’s more who’s around the table with what skillsets, what talents, what unique abilities, and how do we place them in a position that helps support their growth and the growth of the overall organization. I think that, and I think Marty has not been afraid to do things differently in any place of our business, and that has been part of what’s made us so successful I think.

Whitney:

Yes. And oh my gosh, you said so many good things there. And it brought me back to when I was on the investment team. Well, first of all, the company, I think we’re driven by purpose. We’re a purpose-driven company and we have all of this intellectual capital and all of these great people. So, why wouldn’t you lean into their strengths and create roles that actually fit into their talent? But it’s scary. I mean, it’s scary to do the change. I mean, we’re lucky that Marty is a visionary and makes waves wherever he goes, but I think I also had the opportunity to create a role for myself on the investment team with the education and integration and training. That wasn’t a role before.

I had the opportunity and privilege of doing that because of your leadership, because of the company that we’re at. I mean, I think that changed just the trajectory for me in general, just being able to do that.

Katrina:

Also think that it’s beneficial to our clients the way we approach that because you think about the investment offering as an example. Most CIOs would want to come in and say, “This is how we’re going to do it. It’s this way only, and this is how we think it should be done.” And part of the reason I’m the CIO was Marty asked me to be at the time was because that’s not my style and that’s not our style. We need to create solutions that tailor towards our clients and what they need and to our advisors and how they’re serving the clients. And so, I think that’s another, you didn’t ask me that question, but I think that’s another—

Whitney:

No, I never thought about it that way.

Katrina:

—Reason why. It wasn’t just about my style or like me as a leader. It was about what do we need in leadership to have a function that can grow and change and support our advisors and our clients honestly.

Whitney:

Do you feel like you have always been good at adapting and changing and being nimble? Is that something that you have always been strong in or was that something that you had to learn? Because I will say Mariner is always changing, and it can be a little bit intimidating if you don’t have a specific career path. And I know you’ve probably heard this a million times because there’s always a question about career path, but it can be intimidating if you don’t know what’s next or if my position is going away, or it’s changing and molding into a different way to help solve the problem at hand, which I think has been amazing for me personally the way that Mariner is.

But I’m curious if you had to grow and learn and be able to learn to be adaptable and fly the plane while it’s still being built.

Katrina:

No, it has not come naturally to me. I’m only this way because I’ve been here for 18 years and there’s probably some people around the table that have been with me on my 18-year journey here that might suggest that I still have a lot of room to grow in that department.

Whitney:

That’s such a nice way to put it.

Katrina:

But progress, progress.

Whitney:

Yes. You’re the self-improvement junkie that we all love. You’re just still learning. So, that—

Katrina:

But no, it’s not easy. And it’s not easy because there are people that it really causes them a lot of anxiety to know how much we change and how things quickly sometimes we pivot. So, I have empathy for that and it’s not like I’m just coasting along, “Oh, this is so easy now.”

Whitney:

Yeah, “This is great, let’s just change again tomorrow.”

Katrina:

But I think that going back to the purpose, if you know that we are putting our clients first, our associates second, and the shareholders last, and you know that every decision that we’re making is being guided by that, and you know that we are committed to our purpose. And if you can trust in all of those things, and if you can trust in yourself to navigate them, then I think that that allows for an easier ride and allows you as a leader to be able to be a bit more flexible and adaptable.

Whitney:

That sounds like somebody who has grown a lot, right? Like you’ve grown professionally and personally, and you’ve probably learned along the way to invest in yourself. I think something I always want to ask female leaders is, did you have the imposter syndrome that seems to come with a leadership role like, “What am I doing? I’m trying to figure this out as I go. Am I supposed to be here? Why did they choose me?” Did all of those things go through your head?

Katrina:

A hundred percent. I remember when Marty asked me about being the CIO, I thought, “What are you thinking right now?”

Whitney:

I mean, you were young too. You were a young CIO.

Katrina:

I know. Thank you. I’m still so young.

Whitney:

You are.

Katrina:

No, I was. But I think some of our biggest opportunities for growth and expansion as leaders is to be put in roles that we don’t feel ready for. I know I did not feel ready. So, yes, I had some imposter scenarios where I’m like, “Do I know what I’m doing?” And going back to the hundred person team, I’m not just blowing smoke. There are so many people on the team that are way smarter than me. And I’m not saying I’m not smart, I’m just saying we have amazing talent. So, to be put in a position to be leading these people, you kind of look around saying like, “Are they going to listen to me?”

Whitney:

Yeah. Well, and being pushed outside your comfort zone, I think that is something that is probably a good thing for your growth, but it’s also, like, it’s scary if you’re not ready for it.

Katrina:

The most monumental things that happen to you in your life—getting married, having kids, starting a new job, filling a role that you don’t have experience for—those are also some of the best things that could ever happen to you, right?

Whitney:

I think you’ve also taught me this, just being able to be fully vulnerable and open about what is scary or what’s scary for you. I think that is also being your most authentic self and even doing that with clients, I’ve found, because there’s some things that—I became an advisor not too long ago and being able to tell them that I don’t know something, but I want to find it out, it’s actually liberating.

Katrina:

I actually trust people more if they’re willing to tell me they don’t know something. Who knows everything?

Whitney:

I know. Oh my gosh. My son Brooks thinks that he does.

Katrina:

I mean, sometimes I think I do too. My family’s probably like, “You think you know it all, all the time.”

Whitney:

So, I do want to go on to talk a little bit about, it’s related to imposter syndrome and I guess maybe your journey to becoming a leader, but also your journey to becoming your best self. You spoke at our EmpowerHer—I’m so glad that you brought that up, EmpowerHer. And thank you for saying all those kind things about us building that group. You spoke at EmpowerHer about burnout. And I think that you have had a real evolution of going from a workaholic who never took vacation, but then now you have grown into this person that is championing taking time off, getting completely off the grid, resetting, refreshing yourself and taking care of you.

What did that journey look like for you? How did you get to that point? I mean, you journal every day. I know you have a very intense journaling practice, which I’ve tried to be like that and I can’t get there quite yet, but I’m still work in progress. But you journal a lot and you have led meditations and you became a yoga instructor. And I feel like a lot of those are in this investing in yourself, self-care, being good to yourself and being nice to yourself. How did you get there? Because I feel like you had this amazing growth to just become better at not working so much or not being—

Katrina:

Mm-hmm. Because I was myself facing burnout. I didn’t know it.

Whitney:

Okay, so you didn’t know it, but you figured it out?

Katrina:

Mm-hmm, yeah. And when I think about burnout, I think about this flame that’s basically setting themselves on fire. Because it’s generally not happening to you; you are generally doing it to yourself.

Whitney:

Yes.

Katrina:

And so, I hit this point where I just knew if I kept going, I was going to burn out, meaning I might quit or I might get so frustrating and annoying that somebody would not want me to be here. And I wanted to be here. I love this place. And so, I decided something has to change and it’s all me and the pressure that I’m putting on myself.

Whitney:

How did you know that, though? How did you know it was you?

Katrina:

Well, I wasn’t going to say this, but I will anyway. So, it was after my second divorce. And then when you’re living alone—like when you’re living with someone, you can try to blame them for all the stress and what’s not working in your life.

Whitney:

Oh, absolutely.

Katrina:

When you’re living by yourself and you’re still wound up tight and can’t figure out why something’s not working, you have to only look at yourself.

Whitney:

Wow. That is profound.

Katrina:

So, I think it was that, but I also, I had a conversation with my leadership coach—people were giving me signals, right? Generally, people aren’t going to come out and say, “You’re burnt out.” Because that feels mean. Granted, I have told people that, now that I’ve experienced it myself. But they’ll ask you questions—going back to people, you have the answer, and people will ask you questions, right? And so, I had to go within and realize what needs to change about my relationship with work.

And it’s actually funny because Marty sent me an article, I don’t even know if he remembers this, but I think it was like an HBR, a Harvard Business Review article that was about caring a little bit less; or maybe it was Wall Street Journal, I can’t remember. But it was essentially like, how should you care a little bit less about work? And I actually got mad because I thought, why would he send this to me? Why would he try to tell me to care less about work? I love work.

Whitney:

Yeah. Yeah, I love work. It’s who I am. That’s it—

Katrina:

Bingo. That’s the issue. That’s the issue.

Whitney:

That’s it—

Katrina:

Yeah.

Whitney:

It defines me. That’s where I think—

Katrina:

Exactly, exactly. And so, it was this—we don’t have time to go through Katrina’s whole journey of unpacking all the things she was tying up her identity with, but maybe it wasn’t healthy. But that article helped me because it made me realize I care so much that I’m putting so much stress and tension on myself and the work, that it’s not allowing everything to work in a way that’s optimal for me and everybody else around me.

Whitney:

Talk about defining moment. That was after—

Katrina:

Well, and I thought if the CEO’s telling me not to care as much, I won’t.

Whitney:

I don’t remember who told me this. It might’ve been Brad Rollins, but it was like, we’re not brain surgeons. If you don’t get to something, it’s not like somebody’s going to die.

Katrina:

Exactly. Nobody’s bleeding or dying on our watches.

Whitney:

Yeah. And I don’t know, that sank into me because I was working late. And I don’t know if you remember this, but in 2020, I went through, I mean, I’ll call it a mental breakdown. But I think it was more of a burnout because we had the shutdown, and then I had just had a second kid, and we couldn’t have any childcare. And so, my husband and I, we were trying to both work full-time and watch two babies, and then I had a family member pass away. And so, it was just like so much just like fell onto me. And I was fortunate enough to have you as not only a leader, but a mentor and a friend.

I mean, I don’t think that you came out and said you’re burnt out, but you came out and said, “You need to start putting boundaries in place, putting boundaries in place and taking breaks and give yourself the time off.” And I can’t even tell you that that was also a defining moment for me, because I realized that actually stepping away from work allowed me to be better at work.

Katrina:

Yes. Well, the other thing, so there was the pivotal moment of the “A-ha!” and people trying to get me to see things weren’t working, right? But there was also, I had been at a women’s leadership event that talked about burnout. And I think this is the same conversation you alluded to that I spoke with the EmpowerHer group about. And they talked about that yes, there’s the external factors of what’s going on in the company and fast-paced organizations, is it more common? Sure. There’s lots of change, ambiguity, those sorts of things.

But the other thing that they talk about that I don’t think we talk about enough, just generally about work, is the internal factors, the perfectionism, the things, the pressures that we put on ourselves. And it’s those two things together that really lead to burnout. And so, I do think burnout’s preventable if you have the right tools in place to—and enough awareness to realize, enough awareness and enough humility to listen to the people around you that are trying to help you see that maybe you could work a little bit differently.

Whitney:

Internal factors, like perfectionists that just like, ding, ding, ding, ding, that just hit me right at home. Well, then what changed about your outlook on vacationing or taking time off and—

Katrina:

Oh man, it was so hard. It was so hard.

Whitney:

I mean I think you said something like, 15 years without a vacation.

Katrina:

I don’t know.

Whitney:

It was something insane.

Katrina:

It’s an embarrassing number.

Whitney:

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to show your whole self.

Katrina:

It’s not that; I would go on vacation, I just felt that I still had to check email, and I feel like it’s easier if I get up in the morning and do a little work before I go to the beach or whatever, which is fine. And lots of people would prefer to work that way, but I just started getting curious and tried different things. What would happen if I took a whole week off and didn’t check my email? And I just found the more things that I played around with and the more space I gave myself, the more I felt like I was coming back as a more powerful leader, with more ideas, with a different way of looking at things.

I mean, I still do that, but I’ve also just, instead of it needing to be a full vacation, how do I create those micro moments of space daily, weekly?

Whitney:

And so, you feel like that gives you more creative juices. It makes you be more innovative. It just makes you be a better leader. So, you encourage your team to do that too?

Katrina:

Yes. Yes. People might be getting annoyed with me at this point by how much I—

Whitney:

You’re like, “Take time off.”

Katrina:

—suggest it. Right, everybody’s on their own journey and in their own place with what works for them, and maybe other people are probably a little bit better than I was from gripping so tight and thinking like, “I was so important that God forbid, I take any time off work.”

Whitney:

Well, it’s so important. That’s a good one too. I mean, everybody adds value, but I mean, this might be a mean way to say it, but I’m also replaceable. It’s not like—

Katrina:

But we are. That’s not mean, that’s just reality.

Whitney:

Yes, exactly.

Katrina:

Yeah. I also think it’s been the other thing I would say just as a leader that taking that space has been good for. If you can’t take one to two weeks off at my leadership level and have people be able to run things without you, there’s a problem.

Whitney:

Then you’re not doing it right.

Katrina:

I’m not doing a good job of delegating, of communicating, of empowering the team to really do what they already know is how to… They already know what they’re doing.

Whitney:

Yes, I’ve always heard—

Katrina:

I like to do it just to see what comes up while I’m gone, to show me where I have more room to grow as a leader. Where do I need to be—

Whitney:

That’s like a little test case.

Katrina:

Yeah.

Whitney:

I like that.

Katrina:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Well, so I want to jump into developing others and coaching. I feel like you’re just a natural coaching leader. And one of your amazing qualities is bringing out people’s true potential. Again, I told you I’d give you some compliments, and I think that you’ve done that—for me personally—is helped me identify where I really shine. How did you get to be such a good coach and leader, and how did you find your passion for developing others and leading and coaching? Because I think that your leadership style is truly a coaching and authentic leader and maybe you would define it differently, but if you could explain your leadership style and maybe how you got there to be such a good coach and helping people find that.

Katrina:

Well, the one thing I realized talking to you today, when I get into an imposter syndrome situation going forward, I’m just going to come back and listen to this podcast and listen to all the great things that you’re saying about me.

Whitney:

Yes, that’s the goal.

Katrina:

I don’t know. I feel like this is something that it came naturally somehow. I think having had the opportunity to work with a coach myself probably helped just learning through osmosis of what it feels like to be coached and what it feels like to find your own answers. Think about the times where when you have a situation where somebody gave you advice or told you what to do, that’s great. But when you had somebody sitting alongside you that was able to just excavate with you the golden nuggets and the things you already know, that is what creates change in people. And so, I think maybe experiencing that myself is part of what inspires me to be that way as a leader.

I also think it goes back to, as a leader, I think it’s our job to become unnecessary. And the only way you do that is by developing others. It’s not telling them what to do because that’s doing it your way. It’s inspiring them to become—

Whitney:

Find their own way.

Katrina:

—To find their own way, to find their own voice, to find their own power, to find their own passion, right? You deciding you wanted to be an advisor—How do we keep unlocking? And we’re always growing and changing. And so, coaching I think is a requirement of leadership these days with like the—these days, I sound so old—which is the way the world is changing at such a rapid pace. Your jobs are going to change, what you’re doing changes. And so, I think it becomes even more important to have more of a coaching style.

Whitney:

With your leadership coach, did you end up coaching her in certain times? You’re like, “This is fun. I’m going to start asking you questions.”

Katrina:

I don’t know. We’d have to ask her. But no, I think I tried to stay in coachee mode. Yeah.

Whitney:

Yeah. Oh, that’s a good question. I didn’t even think about this. Have you found that there are certain people that are not coachable?

Katrina:

This is hard for me because I believe at everyone’s center, everybody wants to be better and wants to do better and wants to grow, but everybody’s in a different place. And so, I do think that I have encountered situations where I see potential and want something for someone more than they want it for themselves. And I wouldn’t call them that they’re not coachable. It’s just like it’s not the right time, maybe.

Whitney:

They’re not there in their journey. So, you really do see the best in just about everyone.

Katrina:

Yeah, yeah. It’s a blessing and a curse sometimes.

Whitney:

That is actually a good—

Katrina:

I can.

Whitney:

You can.

Katrina:

I’m not saying I always see the best in people in every single moment. That’s like being a saint and I’m not a saint.

Whitney:

No, and you’re also a grounding leader. I think I would call you that too, because something that we had back in the day when I was on the investment team, I would describe my strengths a lot of times as an idea person. And I was like, my head is in the clouds, I have all these ideas, and you were more execution, and grounded me and helped me realize what could be measurable and executed. And not that you weren’t an idea person because you’re creative, but it was a yin to my yang to where you actually grounded me in a way that helped me know, okay, well, don’t go after all of these things. Just go after the ones that actually can be achievable.

Katrina:

As you’re saying that too, I think part of you asking me what caused me to be more of a coaching leader, have that natural—I think some of it’s the analytical part of me.

Whitney:

Oh, it probably is.

Katrina:

I can see patterns and undertones even in people. And so, I think that allows me to have conversations to cultivate what’s happening underneath the surface with them.

Whitney:

Oh, yeah. And you like investigating.

Katrina:

Yeah.

Whitney:

You’re also restorative, which is fixing, or not fixing, but solving problems or finding solutions. So, we talked about you caring a lot about others and developing and coaching others, but you also are a huge philanthropic leader. I think you’ve really transformed the Mariner Foundation. I was going to say you run it, but it’s associate led. So, you have shaped it to what it is today. And we’ve grown and we’ve impacted a lot of organizations over our time. But you’ve also served on many boards and have just—I don’t know; I just feel like you have a big heart. Was there a catalyst for that or have you always just been huge into community impact?

Katrina:

That’s a good question too. I don’t think it’s always—it’s not necessarily—generosity and kindness have always been a thing for me. And I think maybe some of it, again, is growing up in a small town. You know everybody, everybody takes care of everybody.

Whitney:

It is a village and you’re always taking care of each other.

Katrina:

We didn’t have a lot of money growing up, but I always saw my dad, my grandpa, my aunts and uncles, everybody helping other people in some way. So, I think it’s just been a part of who I am. But being part of Mariner and being engaged with Marty has absolutely inspired that to be bigger than I ever thought from a community perspective and been more engaged than I ever anticipated that I would have been. And so, I think both. I think my upbringing and the people around me, but then at Mariner and having an opportunity to be engaged with the Mariner Foundation has taken that to a whole other level.

Whitney:

So, that actually made me think of something else. And I’m going to tie this together. So, you said that you think you as a coaching leader and you think the way that the world is evolving and with AI and with technology, you think that that’s going to change probably our jobs and—not change our jobs but change our role. And we’ve talked about this before, as the advisor is probably going to have to be in some kind of coaching capacity. So, I think that also with philanthropy, we’ve talked a lot about—at least you and I and maybe some of our initiatives, we’ve talked about how we can impact the client more fully and how can we really advise the whole person. So, I’m just going to open that up.

Just tell me what your thoughts are. Maybe it’s the future of wealth management. Maybe it’s the future of bringing giving into the whole self of advising. You take it wherever you want.

Katrina:

Yeah. There’s a lot in that one.

Whitney:

I know.

Katrina:

I feel like we could do a whole podcast on just that.

Whitney:

We probably could, maybe part two.

Katrina:

So, I think yes, on the future of advice, and I agree, like AI, I don’t think we should all be scared about jobs. I think it’s going to change how we work and it’s going to allow, from an advice perspective, allow us to enhance the human element of what we do, the relationship, the advice piece of it, right? Because you’re going to have all this knowledge at your fingertips, but you’re still going to have to have discernment and judgment around how you take that knowledge and how you then implement it in your financial life or like what that looks like. So, coaching, strategy, yes, I think that the human element of advice will be magnified and more needed.

As it relates to impact and philanthropy, I mean, you and I have been having these conversations just in some of the stuff you’re working around or working on in regards to relationship with money. And how do you think about money, not just in terms of how you’re investing it, but how are you feeling about it in terms of like how you’re making it, what you’re spending it on, like how are you allocating your resources generally? And one of those pieces that I think sometimes we maybe don’t highlight enough or sometimes people aren’t thinking about enough, is a lot of people save and save and save and they wait until death to leave an impact, or to leave a legacy with their charitable giving or whatever.

But if you got more clear on what you’re really passionate about now, and could think about your giving as you think about all of your assets and where they’re going, how does that allow you to see the impact now while you’re still living and to make bigger impacts in community things that you’re passionate about sooner versus waiting until you’re dead?

Whitney:

Yeah. I mean, I love what you said there because I talk to my clients a lot about that. It doesn’t have to be after you die. I mean, whether it’s charitable giving or you can enjoy your kids and helping them with their first home, and you can see that rather than leaving that to them after you die.

Katrina:

Yeah. Well, and I think it’s also a little bit around impact generally. I don’t think it just has to be charitable giving, right?

Whitney:

Right.

Katrina:

There’s a lot more happening with impact investing and people wanting to put their dollars around—and I’m not going to get in to it, I think we’ve politicized a lot of the things around ESG that had good intentions, but now things are getting a little weird with them—but people still want to invest their dollars around things they care about, whether it’s—

Whitney:

Exactly and it’s their values.

Katrina:

—like their invest—yes. Yeah.

Whitney:

And that’s something else that we talk a lot about is, and we’re aligned on, is just really talking to families and clients and people about what their values are, what they truly believe in, and lean into those with the way that we manage your money or create your financial plan and how you’re achieving your goals. But your goals are really going to be driven by your values.

Katrina:

So, a lot of things, because I think the things that we’re engaged in from a community perspective within Mariner, within our own walls through the foundation, how could we invite clients more into that if they’re interested, help them understand causes we know about, if they’re interested in them. So, I think there’s a lot more we can do as we move into the future there. Yeah.

Whitney:

Yeah. So, what’s your favorite thing about being a leader?

Katrina:

It’s taking care of people. It’s seeing those moments when they have the “A-ha!” or they have the inspiration to realize they can do the thing they didn’t think they could do.

Whitney:

Yeah. Well, I mean, just I think I told you this, but I had to go through an entire self-reflection and journaling and pros, cons, and getting advice on leaving the investment team and becoming an advisor. And I think at first, you probably maybe felt sad that I didn’t come to you before I made the decision, but I think that what you should feel is that you put me in a position to where I could do it without you, because you built me into that person to where you empowered me to be able to make that decision on my own. And then I was able to share with you that I did this on my own.

So, I wanted to share that because it was like this “A-ha!” moment for me that I can do it without you, but that’s only because I had you in my corner.

Katrina:

I love that story because that’s leadership, right? I don’t want people to feel like they need to come to me for answers. That’s not growing a leader.

Whitney:

Right. Yeah.

Katrina:

Yeah.

Whitney:

Okay. So, lightning round, I’m going to start with—Are you ready?

Katrina:

Ready.

Whitney:

Okay. What is the best piece of advice you’ve ever been given?

Katrina:

Oh, these are lightning rounds that are supposed to be fast. Best piece of advice—

Whitney:

You can think about it for a second.

Katrina:

—Is—

Whitney:

Oh, it’s great.

Katrina:

You create your own life. It’s yours.

Whitney:

What is the worst piece of advice that you’ve ever been given?

Katrina:

I’m not going to point any fingers at any one piece of advice, but I’ve gotten a lot of terrible relationship advice. Nobody knows you better than you know yourself or your relationship. So, yeah, I’ll just leave it at that.

Whitney:

So, basically, let’s boil that down to anything with relationships, just take your own advice.

Katrina:

Yeah.

Whitney:

You know you, you know what you like.

Katrina:

Yeah, yeah.

Whitney:

Yeah. Lean into that. Okay. What is currently on your nightstand right now?

Katrina:

Books, reading glasses and a bowl of self-care items.

Whitney:

Oh, what’s your self-care of choice? This is an add-on.

Katrina:

I have this amazing foot cream that I just love putting—especially in the winter—I love putting it on and putting warm socks on before bed.

Whitney:

Okay, I’m going to need to get that foot cream. This is one of my favorite questions and I ask it every time: If you could only eat one thing for the rest of your life, what would it be?

Katrina:

Salmon.

Whitney:

That was so easy for you.

Katrina:

I love salmon. And I know people out there might be like the mercury every day, but I don’t care.

Whitney:

I think every time I ask it, my mind changes. Mine changes every day. Sometimes it’s sushi, sometimes it’s pizza, sometimes it’s just straight up Taco Bell.

Katrina:

Ask me next week, but today it’s salmon.

Whitney:

Salmon. You can eat salmon all day every day?

Katrina:

Yes. I love it.

Whitney:

Wow. Okay. I love that about you. This might be out of left field, but is there something about you that people would be surprised about? Think about your layers—

Katrina:

So, you won’t be surprised at my layers. There’s so many.

Whitney:

There’s so many.

Katrina:

Most people I find are surprised to learn that I love to bake and that I’m actually really good at it. I think because they perceive me as this businesswoman that’s like—

Whitney:

That doesn’t have time to bake or cook.

Katrina:

Yeah. That they don’t see this lovely nurturing side of me that makes all these sweet treat—or can.

Whitney:

Her brownies, her homemade brownies are the best. They’re my whole family’s favorite. And finally, my actual favorite question, what would you say is your superpower?

Katrina:

I think it’s that not only do I ask the questions, but just something about me creates this space that allows people to just open up and speak whatever is ready to rise to the surface.

Whitney:

You’re like a warm blanket.

Katrina:

I don’t know that I’ve ever been described that way, but I will take it. Thank you.

Whitney:

Well, I went back and looked at something it was you had asked me, you said you were going to be part of a workshop and you asked me to say three things that describe you, or three characteristics or strengths about you. And I went back and looked at it. And something that I did say was, she is my spiritual zen master back to what I said in the beginning, but you somehow make me feel like I want to be vulnerable, but at the same time, it doesn’t feel vulnerable and I just want to share my whole self. So, I think that’s definitely a unique ability and you’re absolutely right. It’s a superpower of yours. And it’s just helping people become their true best selves. Yeah.

Katrina:

And that’s one of my greatest joys is to see people unlock their own potential. So, that’s probably why it’s a superpower. Where do you see yourself in five years? That’s such a hard question. I’ve never been a person that’s been able to answer that in part because let life surprise you. I know that might sound like a weird answer, but—

Whitney:

And scary for some people?

Katrina:

Yeah.

Whitney:

But after all of the growth in your personal and professional journey, maybe people should listen to it. Listen to the advice.

Katrina:

Maybe. It used to bother me when I didn’t have an answer for that, like I should have an answer.

Whitney:

And now look at you, you’re not even fazed.

Katrina:

I know.

Whitney:

You look so relaxed.

Katrina:

I am.

Whitney:

So, you guys, now the audience can see why she’s the spiritual zen master. Okay, Katrina, thank you so much for today. This was so fun.

Katrina:

It was so fun. Thank you for having me.

Whitney:

I absolutely adored talking to you and actually just sharing you and being able to spotlight you for the audience. I hope that they saw all of the amazing qualities and attributes that I get to see every day, and thank you to the audience for tuning in and listening. And if you did enjoy what you heard from Katrina and myself, please like, subscribe or follow wherever you listen to your podcasts. And we hope you have a great rest of your week.

The views expressed in this podcast are for informational and educational purposes only and do not consider any individual, personal, financial, legal, or tax situation. As such, the information contained herein intended and should not be construed as a specific recommendation, individualized tax, legal, or investment advice. Where specific advice is necessary or appropriate, individuals should contact their own professional tax and investment advisors or other professionals regarding their specific circumstances and needs prior to taking any action based upon this information. The information provided has been obtained from sources deemed reliable.

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